It Girls | Nora Livingstone and Dr. Heather Reid
I am so grateful that Nora came into my life through my Figure Your Sh*t Out (FYSO) group. I remember being immediately intrigued by her but never did I think we would become as close as we are! Nora is such a beam of light in my life. She and her business partner Dr. Reid are experts in ethical tourism among other things. Give it a read and get to know them both!
Name: Nora Livingstone and Dr. Heather Reid
Ages: 36 and 50
Job Titles/Company: Co-founders of Animal Experience International
Education Background: Nora has a BA in Environmental Studies and Cultural Anthropology.
Heather has a BSc and is a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine
Nora + Dr. Heather
Tell us a little about who you are.
Nora: I am a human who likes other humans and thinks that dogs are human, too.
But as a multi-faceted woman, I also like pizza and riding bikes.
I grew up in West Germany and all over Canada on account of the fact that I am an army brat. Travel, adventure but also kindness were always in my blood. I have always loved volunteering for things. Truly I do just like helping but selfishly I like being part of something bigger. Planting trees in a reclaimed watershed, feeding rescue pups after hurricanes, cutting up mangoes for toucans who have been confiscated from animal traffickers. Volunteering has brought me to some amazing places, beautiful people, and outrageous experiences. I never saw myself as someone who would own and operate a company, I never saw myself as someone who could focus on one thing for so long. I spent my 20s travelling every opportunity I had- sometimes volunteering on animal programs, sometimes guiding canoes and mountaineers in the wilderness. I guess it all makes sense now because being an entrepreneur means you have to wear eleventy billion different hats.
Heather: I like to think of myself as an optimist who helps others feel hopeful and enabled. The world can be a pretty depressing place - and if my legacy is having inspired someone to believe in their own power to make a positive change, then I will be happy.
I am a veterinarian, business owner, and mother of three amazing, strong daughters. It sounds like my life would be chaotic - and it often is! But I try to be grateful for every life experience I have been granted - no matter how challenging, inspiring or humbling.
2. What sparked your interest in starting your business(es)?
Nora: It was all Heather’s idea! We worked together at a wildlife centre in Canada. I was the volunteer coordinator and she is still a vet there. After I left I really struggled with what I was supposed to do with my life. I never really had a clear vision of what I wanted to do when I grew up. I had volunteered and travelled a lot and was always telling people about my time volunteering and how to make good (ethical/responsible/sustainable) choices. I had been to really wonderful programs and I had taken part in really not great ones so I was already trying to get people to think about their travel footprints and the ethics of tourism. Heather approached me one day at a friends BBQ and she had this excellent idea. Now, 10 years later we are award-winning ethical travel experts!
Heather: Professionally, I am a wildlife veterinarian, with a focus on keeping our wild neighbors healthy, conserving ecosystems and teaching people how to live in a way that promotes wildlife health. I also love to travel, so starting a company that helps people volunteer with conservation and veterinary programs around the world seemed like a natural progression to me. Having met Nora, and knowing she shared these passions made starting a business seem possible.
3. If applicable, tell us about your fulltime job and/or any side hustles you might have.
We are the co-founders of a B Corp called Animal Experience International. We help people travel around the world volunteering on safe, ethical and authentic conservation and animal welfare programs. Animal conservation and welfare programs contact us, we do about 2 years of research to make sure the centre is safe, ethically run and authentically providing care to these animals. Then we send volunteers who are needed to these centres. Sometimes they need people who can wash a car (that means they can help wash a rescue horse), sometimes we need people who can make a fruit salad (that means they can make breakfast for howler monkeys who will be returning to the wild).
Nora: On the side I host an animal show for kids, it’s called Animal Chat Time. Once a week we talk about weird and wonderful animals like narwhals, chickens and binturongs!
Heather: I divide my time between Animal Experience International and my work as a veterinarian. Nora and I make up AEI - so we do everything ourselves, from accounting to web design, marketing, business planning, and of course working with our clients and partners to set up amazing, meaningful travel experiences. I’m not sure if that makes my veterinary work my side hustle? I am the head veterinarian at the largest wildlife centre in Canada, and I am a staff veterinarian at our city zoo. As you can see, the central theme in my work is helping animals, and providing people with the opportunity to get involved with animal organizations.
4.Who are you most influenced by?
Nora: Badass women+ who who speak truth. Women like Chanel Miller (artist and author), Deborah Frances-White (author, podcaster), Carrie Fisher (actor), Anita Naidu (pro mountain biker, engineer and humanitarian), Olivia Alaso and Kelsey Nielsen (founders of No White Saviours) and Audre Lorde (author, activist).
Heather: My life has been shaped by a series of close friendships with strong women. People who understand the importance of valuing all life, being part of the solution, and trying to leave the planet better off if possible.
5. What was your first job and how long did you hold that position?
Nora: I had a lot of odd jobs growing up, I would dog sit for neighbours, I worked at a dollar store, I did landscaping and grass maintenance at a municipal golf course, I was an Resident Advisor in university, I was a librarian and a personal trainer! I think the first job that really made my heart sing was being a volunteer coordinator at Toronto Wildlife Centre. I deeply love helping people and I believe in volunteers and their power to change the world. Plus, I got to work with animals! I worked there for two years and luckily in those two years, I met Dr. Heather!
Heather: My first job was working at Dairy Queen and they had to make me manager at 16 because everyone else quit! Very impressive. My first meaningful job was as head veterinarian at Toronto Wildlife Centre, where I have now worked for over 20 years.
6. Can you share one of your proudest achievements with us?
Nora: I was asked and agreed to be the ethical travel and animal welfare expert for Journeywoman a media group that has been helping women travel since 1994. But professionally, I am so proud of AEI being a B Corp. We are a certified B Corp and we have been Best for the World every year since we were first certified in 2014.
Heather: It might seem strange that I would consider a trip to Australia as one of my proudest achievements, but let me explain! That trip was the first time I had traveled for our new company, Animal Experience International, and I was visiting several potential partner organizations in Australia. It was such a powerful experience for me, knowing that our vision of creating an international travel organization that could have an impact, literally on the other side of the world, was actually now a reality.
“It is our responsibility to show the presence of nuance and uniqueness while letting people tell and listen to the stories in an ethical and non-exploitative manner. ”
7. What were your initial goals with your work? How have they evolved?
Nora: Originally we just wanted to help people travel and volunteer safely and ethically. But our ideas of ethics have evolved a lot. From obvious animal welfare practices to deeper ideas of white saviourism and the dismantling/unpacking of the racist history of travel.
Heather: I agree with Nora - there is so much more to travel, tourism and working with animal organizations than first meets the eye, and we have tried to evolve as a company over the years. We have also grown as business women, learning on the job so to speak, as neither of us had business backgrounds before launching head first into this enterprise.
“Be passionate about your vision - having passion will help you push through the tough times.
”
8. What do you think is the most important life skill you learned through your work?
Nora: To be humble and ask questions. No one knows everything but some people know an awful lot about one or a few things. I know a lot, a lot about ethical travel and animals but I don’t know anything about architecture. It doesn’t make me a dope or a failure if I go into a conversation with architects and find myself lost. Now take our architecture and add like a million other things.
Heather: During all the late night planning sessions, endless writing of manuals and website content, number crunching, and hauling of displays to expos and conferences in the dead of winter - I kept reminding myself that “this is what success looks like”. It is all the hard work, the slogging through things most people wouldn’t want to do, the failures and the second tries that define success, that make a business successful. So the most important life skill I have learned would be resilience. And also humour - a good laugh goes a long way!
9. Where do you hope to be in five years?
Nora: Sipping a cocktail with my feet in the sand. Professionally though I would like to be doing less day to day at AEI and thinking more about big picture ideas. Getting more travelers on more programs and making ethical and responsible travel with animals the norm.
Heather: Hopefully I will be on a patio overlooking the Mediteranean sea, running AEI from my even smarter smartphone. But mostly I’d like to be past this particular period in time, when travel has been forced to pause as the world struggles with the Covid-19 pandemic.
Nora Livingstone
Dr. Heather Reid
10. What is a typical day like for you?
Nora: Most of my work is behind a computer- or in front? I’m not sure of the expression. Anyway, I do all our social media, our client recruitment, interviews, first contact with people who have questions about AEI, website management, partner communications, new partner research, trip planning for clients, and put out any fires that come up. Basically I make sure we have clients, they are super prepared and ready for their trip BUT ALSO make sure we have placements and make sure they are providing safe, ethical and real volunteer programs for our clients. Once a year I get to visit new placements to make sure they are everything they said they would be when we did our 2 years of research!
Heather: I love my work because every day is so different. On clinic days I am working hands-on with animals, and also teaching and mentoring students. AEI happens every day - we are always available by email! When I am officially at my AEI desk, I wear the hat of veterinary coordinator, college liaison, manager of everything regulatory and financial, writer of travel manuals, and like Nora, I help put out fires that seem to constantly pop up. People imagine that we are always traveling, which we aren't. But the times when we DO travel are pretty awesome, especially when Nora and I get to travel together.
11. What was the biggest obstacle you’ve faced so far in the process of pursuing your goals?
Nora: When we started AEI we thought travel would be something people would always want to do. While that is still true in 2020, the Covid-19 pandemic has meant even though people want to go, it simply is not safe. This is the biggest obstacle because we have no control over anything. We are powerless (like many others) and just have to sit in the uncertainty. No amount of hard work will make AEI successful at this time so we just have to sit and wait. This is particularly hard because we are in such close contact with all our placements. We have been to all of them so we know the great work they do and how important donations and volunteers are to their mission. While we know no animals in care are suffering, we do know that less animals can be given care and that is really hard.
Heather: Well, nothing can compare to the impact Covid-19 has had on the travel industry. It’s frustrating when financial limitations are an obstacle we face in pursuing our goals. As a B Corp we are committed to making ethical business decisions, which has always helped us define and redefine what success looks like. Supporting local communities, donating to our partner organizations, and offsetting carbon emissions from travel are as important to us as our profit and loss statements. But we always want to do more, which is hard when we are feeling the financial pinch.
12. What is the best piece of advice you have received?
Nora: Very few decisions are final and we can only make decisions with what we knew at the time. Maya Angelou beautifully said when you know better, do better. Don’t be angry at who you were in the past and the decisions you made, you made those for very particular and important reasons. BUT if you have changed from the person you were when you made those decisions, you are allowed to change your decision and change your mind. There is no need to be prideful, when we can just be better.
Heather: When I first graduated from vet college, my now husband told me "if you think you're the rig, you're the rig". By this he meant, imagine what you want and then believe you can do it. If you have the confidence and the vision, people will also believe in you.
13. When do you get your best ideas?
Nora: When I am out in nature not looking at my phone or when I am talking with Heather. Some of our best ideas are when we were just goofing around. Basically when I get out of my head and get some fresh ideas into my circular thoughts.
Heather: I think my best ideas come when Nora and I can just freestyle our thoughts without having a structure or agenda. Then we can allow ourselves to be creative without worrying about whether the ideas make " sense".
14. Can you share with us one time that you failed and what you learned from that failure?
Nora: I fail all the time. I fail at something at least once a day. But if you aren’t failing, you aren’t learning so I guess I learn every single day! What I have learned from my life of failing is that failure is not fatal and honestly, no one notices your failures as much as you do.
Heather: One thing being an entrepreneur teaches you is humility. You take full credit for all the successes - but the mistakes are also yours to own. Even something relatively small, like having to pay for a booking I forgot to cancel, can be demoralizing (at least temporarily). But it has taught me to take more in stride and to not take problems personally. Because there can be serious consequences if we were to truly mess up, we did become a fully licensed travel company which offers our clients certain protections and we have lots of insurance to back us up!
15. How do you unwind?
Nora: I spend time outdoors. I love mountain biking, the thrill of going fast down a single track is awesome. And when you are going fast on a bike it’s very dangerous to think about anything else- it’s a great way to stop thinking about work! I also really love climbing, probably for the same reasons! I love the mountains, I love seeing where my body can take me on Earth and I love doing something that I have to focus on. I also really enjoy reading- getting lost in a good story or seeing something in a new way is my favourite, I make sure I read some of a book every single day.
Heather: I have lots of little ways to unwind that I try to sneak into my schedule. Reading. Walking our dog. Watching an online walking tour while on the treadmill (it's almost like traveling!) I also love getting away with my family to our cabin in the woods.
16. What would you tell someone else who is interested in entering your field?
Nora: You need to listen more than you talk. We have been fed a diet of white dominant culture our whole lives, especially in the travel industry. This has made the industry white biased, entitled and reductionist. If you are going to help people travel you have to accept this is where a lot of people are coming from. BUT you get to direct them to a new way of thinking and a different path. People are going to say they want to go to Africa, like there isn’t 54 unique countries there. People are going to see a picture of someone swimming with a dolphin (that was brutally stolen from the wild and saw it’s family be murdered) and tell you they also want to do that. These people aren’t bad people. They are misinformed because they don’t know what they don’t know and thankfully they asked you- someone that cares about responsible travel, how they can travel. Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie has a Ted Talk about the danger of a single story. Travel, if we aren’t responsible can sit in a place that has people think each country has a single story- a story of ‘the other’. It is our responsibility to show the presence of nuance and uniqueness while letting people tell and listen to the stories in an ethical and non-exploitative manner.
Heather: Helping people travel is a huge responsibility. People are spending a significant amount of money in advance of their trip, essentially on your recommendation. It is important to be educated and informed about the countries where you are sending clients. You are providing them with guidance and educating them as to how to be a respectful and ethical visitor to that country.
Depending on where you live, there may be regulations in place, that as a travel company you will have to abide by. Some of these requirements can be quite onerous, so I would recommend doing the necessary research to find out how this would affect your business.
We have had many people approach us for employment, thinking our job is essentially traveling the world and helping with interesting conservation projects. Someone getting into this field should understand that 99% of our time is spent in our office and by far the most common species we work with are humans!
17. What do you hope people take away from your story?
Nora: You don’t need to have a clear vision of your future to make a difference. You don’t need to have a singular focus because your story is probably going to change a whole lot along the way- and it will keep changing!
Heather: If you are diving into entrepreneurship, choose something that aligns with your interests and beliefs. While it’s important to dream big, also be realistic, do your research, and surround yourself with a good support network. Examine your definition of success. Success isn't always about money - it can be about achieving meaningful change, working with people who make you happy, supporting and mentoring others, or anything else that is important to you.
18. Anything we missed that you would like to share?
Nora: I already said so much it would be shocking if I had more to say.
Heather: Be passionate about your vision - having passion will help you push through the tough times.
Follow AEI:
website | Instagram | Facebook | Twitter
